tv After Words Gretchen Carlson Be Fierce CSPAN November 22, 2017 9:04pm-10:03pm EST
it's too bad we don't have anything to talk about today. >> that is the understatement of the century. why don't we start by talking about harvey weinstein because that served the story everybody is talking about right now and it's every day some new atrocity occurred and yesterday or the day before, whenever it was, three more people came forward with the idea that he had raped them and this has been going on for years and years and there
were eight settlements against him and obviously everyone in the company knew about it. i have to say i wondered about his wife, who i gather last night announced she was leaving him finally and how she could possibly not have heard about this. how do you think that this happened, how was this allowed to go on and on and have nobody speak out until now? >> as a society and as a culture, we protect them. that is the 20 million-dollar question, why. is it because we are protecting our own jobs? is it because we are protecting a person in power? those are the two top reasons but now that the floodgates have
been opened i get so much credit to the women who were able to tell their stories and by the way, eight settlements and there's probably more that have been reported. but that doesn't mean there were only eight people. there were three other people who have come forward who haven't reached settlements. what is the statute of limitation? >> it is a longer statute of limitations for sexual harassment you don't have a lot of time to file a claim. it's different in every state and depends whether it is a federal or state violation, so that's another thing we need to look into there are so many ways we can lock to help more women come forward especially on an issue like sexual harassment where you don't automatically switch on a light and everyone will come forward. it is less than two years.
>> about power and jobs that doesn't excuse the men in the company and the people who were on the board and all the people who had to be involved in those settlements. they had to know about it. why did they not say anything and who are they? >> guest: we would have to fill up every newspaper that ever existed because it isn't just that company where it's happening. they are covering this up in hundreds and maybe thousands of companies across this country and across the world. so, the big question that you ask is why. what i found out from the research in my book is that it's not always the most powerful company that we protect. sometimes we even protect a low-level employee. somebody comes into a job and
they are warned to be careful joe over there has been here for 30 years and has a rude sense of humor, sure enough the woman finds out who he is and goes to complain and who do they protect? he's not a central person to the functioning of the company or the ceo but they protect him and that woman is paid out. >> i feel bullied by the harvey weinstein story. not just you, we all do. i was horrified that i was also thrilled about this came out that he was outed and he got fired from his company, they are going to take his name off the company, that he's going into therapy and thrilled his wife was leaving him. i think that he should be shone
and this is a huge step forward for all of us who've had these experiences, and we all have. and it is a step forward for the people that you mentioned who will also be called out and they are going to feel ashamed that all of those women have felt and shouldn't have. enablers are a huge part of the problem and huge part of the solution and sexual harassment companies should focus more on enablers than almost anything else. we should focus on how do we get the courage to come forward. it's crucial. >> i said to you earlier as i was reading the book i got madder and madder and it makes you crazy reading one story after another you keep thinking this can't be happening, yet it
is. the reason we are here is because of your experience at fox news and the suits against roger ailes. i know you can't talk about it, but i can. so i just wanted to read in your complaint he unlawfully retaliated and sabotaged the career and complained about the pervasive sexual harassment. retaliating in various ways described by terminating employment on june 252016 and prior among other things ostracizing and after making it clear to her that these problems would not have existed and could
be solved if she had a sexual relationship with him. when they met to discuss the treatment to which she was being subjected he stated i think you and i should have had a relationship a long time ago and then you would be good and better and i would be good and better adding that sometimes problems are easier to solve that way. then nine months later she ended her career at fox news. well, first of all, he was so repulsive. the idea that someone could think that he would get away with that, that he would be attractive enough to even take them up were it not for the outrage of what he was assuming that one of the reasons you can't talk about it you did
result in a 20-dollar settlement which wasn't enough bu was goody can't you talk about it? is that not a part of the problem in the way that in order to reach a settlement you have to agree not to talk about it and just as a cabbie got with regard to the resolution and giving back money away i just want to be clear about that and all the proceeds from my book are going to the gift of coverage. settlements, yes. this is the way in which the culture has decided to resolve these kind of cases. over 90% of sexual harassment cases end up insolvent. and what does that mean? though warm and pretty much never works in her chosen career ever again and can never talk
about it. how else do we solve these sexual harassment suits? we put in contracts to make it a secret proceeding so nobody ever finds out about it if you file a complaint you can never talk about it. nobody ever knows what happened to you that you'v you were termd from the company and in many cases a predator is left to work in the same position which he was harassing you. so this is the way that our society has decided to resolve the cases so that we can fool everyone out there that we've come so far in 2017. and the reason we think we have come so far is because we are not hearing about these cases, but the reason we are not hearing about the case is because they are silenced by the settlement were forced arbitration.
>> supposed you said i want this settled but i don't want this silenced clause would they have said go away? >> i was given the benefit to go ahead and talk about the issue ultimately and shar ensure othes stories and talk about ways in which i think we should change the law and have a this very conversation after all. >> what do we do to change this happening to someone else when you can file a sexual harassment charge and then you can reach a settlement, but the settlement doesn't include silencing you? >> the first thing we need to do, we have to take these out of employment contracts or at least take the secrecy out of it. i'm working diligently to get a bipartisan bill on that because
it is a political. political. before somebody harasses you and this is why republicans and democrats should care about this equally for their daughters, granddaughters and i've been meeting with many of them privately to try to get them onboard to support this bill to take the secrecy out of it so how does that change the landscape? if you are sexually harassed, then you can file a public complaint and have a jury trial which is your amendment right. the way that it works now is if you file that you finally compls secret and you go to arbitration where only 20% of the time does the victim actually weigh in and it's not like in open court system besides the secrecy you can't call the same amount of witnesses, but the positions the different, there is no appeal and the people here in the cases are retired lawyers and judges
who may not be as adept at understanding sexual harassment in this particular generation. >> so maybe they are not going to side with the victim as well. >> we need to start there if i could get a bipartisan bill to pass that takes the secrecy out of this, that is a warning shot to companies that you can hide this kind of behavior anymore. >> explained to mexplain to me t a no-brainer when you go up on the hill and talk to members of congress and say i want this arbitration bill changed why would anyone say no? give me a good reason of what they will say to you. >> democrats are in favor of the same republican support for big
business. >> so basically do they say we are supporting big business? how do they phrased it? they are thinking long and hard about the ramifications of their own children. some of them even told me that their wives have been sexually harassed, so i think this is why people are so frustrated in general they speak out a lot of sides of the mouth, so i'm the one hand i think rationally they look at this and realize they should be onboard. then they have a hold of their constituency. >> so the big business guys will go in to talk to the republican
senators they will lobby them and say you can't do this and the reason you can't do this is because we are sexually harassing them and we were losing a lot of money. that's the only reason they could be against it. >> it is cheaper for the employees and also the biggest thing is the big companies will say we are doing a big service to unclog the courts because coy are already overworked so this is a way to solve the small business disputes by putting them into arbitration. those are the arguments that are put in a.
you realize you don't have any options an and rights have been taken away. this was not your first experience. tell me will experience is that you had when you were 22, you have two or three that were pretty disgusting it was when i was ms. america actually and maybe the blessing of that is that i had built tough skin because when you accomplish something like that suddenly my resume of being a concert
violinist and stanford graduates attended oxford evaporated i have built thick-skinned a lot but towards the end of the year i started reading the television executives and one executive was so nice to me all day long i realized this was going to be a great beginning for me and when i got into the back seat of the car service to take me back to my friends apartment, suddenly he was on top of me with his tongue down my throat and i remember being panicked and thinking how am i going to get out of this and i screamed for the driver to stop and i opened the door and got out not knowing where i was and i got back into just lost it.
with so many women have gone through, all of that just goes away. i never spoke to him again, so i guess he didn't really want to help me and unfortunately a couple weeks later i was in los angeles meeting with a high-powered publicist, i was a go-getter walking on all the doors to get a career started and unfortunately i was in the car again with him and he took my head and with his hand forcefully jammed my head down iand his crotch so hard i couldn't breathe.
here is the fascinating part about this. i never spoke openly about the story until recently but more importantly, it was a friend when i was telling her the stories he said to me you realize those were both assaults and i said what are you talking about? hyou said that is a fault. and i never defined it that way before and i think it speaks volumes about how we normalize this even if women in culture that we think we can overcome if so we just put it aside and we don't acknowledge it for what it is and it was actually the pasha who told me that she said what happened to her.
she was fierce and came forward all those years later. she was a "people" magazine reporter doing a story about the impending birth of presidents child and she says when she went up to change her clothes but he took her outside into a room and forcefully kissed her against her will and she actually took her so often that. she told "people" magazine. >> and i'm saying in general, women should tell another human being what happened because we live in this he said she said
culture so she's the one when i was interviewing her for my book telling her what happened to me she was the one who told me and then she came forward with her story because she was listening to one of the debates where the president had said he never forcefully kissed anyone against their will and she thought i don't want to be silent anymore. and she ran into her on the street and said we haven't seen you in a long time where have you been and when she came out after the story they never been into each other, it didn't happen so what do you say about the wives who are enabling their husbands to do this kind of thing? maloney is a perfect example and i don't know about harvey
weinstein got a kid to mention she didn'whomentioned she didn'e inkling of this. >> what i would say to them as i hope that they can find a way and they're hard to also be fierce and stand up for who they are and give themselves more respect. >> you mentioned jane fonda had several experiences. what were her experience as? >> she came out and said she was raped earlier in her career. she never told those stories before so this is the culture that we live in where these kind of stories are stuffed down and women are made to feel ashamed as something happened to them when the innocence they were shamed swedish to turn this issue in the opposite direction.
one of the pouch row came forward and so did angelina jolie. the issue of shame fascinates me. i have as you can imagine a number of experiences like this one where i was 19 when senator john tower took me to lunch and ended up with dinner and i should've known better thashoule took me to this bar i shouldn't have gone and we got in the cab and he tried to repea rape me ie back of the cab. i was so ashamed i cried for days. i started telling people and i had these two agents come to the
house and they said we heard about your experience and we are checking about the resume. i say this is totally confidential. we get our stories from you guys and as it turned out he was voted down and the only republican voted against him because she heard my story and then ththen poor anita hill whoa perfect example of this didn't have my experience or background and talked to the fbi and told her story and she ended up on capitol hill in her life was ruined. her life was ruined. she's now the punchline and that's all you know about her nevermind that she is a distinguished lawyer. a producer hired me to be the
girlfriend in the movie flipper about the dolphin and he said literally but you will have to sleep with me if you want to part and i said well, i will have to ask my father and i didn't get a call back. i had a producer of 60 minutes said you're going to make me a story and hope and hopefully wip and hair and all that and took me to my room one night and threw me against the bad. these are stories i never told right away and i did write a book about my experience but i never told this story because i was ashamed. i was 19. i shouldn't have agreed to go to
dinner. i should have managed to keep them out of the cab. i still feel that and the same way about the producer 60 minutes. what was i thinking. he was going to help needy a big star and i just started out on television and have no experience that i should have known better it was my fault i led him on. but i still feel ashamed even to this day. how do women get over this ashamed. we all want to look attractive. i want to look sexy when i go out at night and chris out and do my hair and makeup but where is the moment when you cross the line when you are coming along and asking for it as opposed to.
>> i don't think women are ever asking to be assaulted. what i say in the book is that you can be wearing a short skirt in hospital scrubs or army fatigued and it doesn't matter. you shouldn't feel any shame. how we get over that as we talk about it. i've even seen some people say on twitter gwyneth paltrow for example didn't come forward right away so we should discount what she's saying right now. but this is how it starts. we should never shame a woman who comes forward at all. we should realize even if these episodes have been 30, 40, 50 years ago i don't care when it happened as long as you start
coming forward and encourage other women as it is happening now that's how it works it is a chain of inspiration. one woman at a time. it's not something you just wake up one day and say i'm going to do this monumental thing. it is a process of time. it's not a light switch and it is one of the greatest myths i've seen on my social media is why did you wait so long until it was all over? that is such a naïve and ignorant question because you don't realize where they are still in society. we are still legal at the b. word and labeled you cannot believe and the best one a is we bring all the cases forward to
a. i've never met any of the women i spoke into where there is a reason. >> over 40 years ago, over 50 years ago i never told this story until last year. i can only imagine i waited so long to tell that story. now did that make it less legitimate because i waited that long? that's the point you don't want to talk about it, you somehow feel embarrassed you don't want
to bring that sort of attention on your soul for people to think you're a troublemaker or complainer but i agree with you in the idea of people talking about the twin attacks and. the feminist point of view is, and i agree with this if you say it happened, it happened and this should be done. however, there is another side of the story. this is something we can't pretend doesn't exist. i happen to know this because a close friend of mine her son was one of those at duke university who got thrown out for harassing a woman it turned out she made up the whole story about his
life was ruined he was thrown out of college and all that kind of thing so i have a lot of friends of mine who had sons in college who basically say you want to keep a stack of permission slips and make sure helhow do you protect your sons. you talk about your children and what to tell your children and help to make sure they understand what the rules are and how far you can go and what you can do but there's another side to it. i acknowledge in my gut that there are also accusations. however a very small percentage
makes me -- would be assaulted which doesn't make me feel good if parents are sending their kids off to some of th it is one reasons i'm getting a college campus tour because you have to get them young to form and shape their opinions. one expert told me in the buck if you start trying to change them in their 40s and 50s forget it, it's too late. the main mission now is to get the kids at a young age so they are building the perceptions and respect for women while they are growing up. i did a whole chapter on parenting because it is essential. i worked for for my son than i have for my daughter because when he gets into the workforce and 12 years or so, i want him to look at his female colleagues and respect them the same way he looks at me now and respects me. my kids were the most important
position in what i decided to do. when i jumped off that cliff, the only thing i was thinking about is how well my kid be in it was the biggest decision of my life to do what i did and i would not have done it if i thought i would have harmed my children. in the end, how could i have ever known how any day would be after that with no safety net? i have now seen my children get that gift of coverage themselves specifically my daughter looking for courage in certain aspects of her life and when she went to school on the first day after that summer happened to be the same day my resolution was announced, i was very angst about it and she came home from school and said a lot of people were asking me what happened to do over the summer. she said i was so proud to be
able to see that you are my mom. >> host: what was the tipping point for you because obviously you put up with it yet here you are getting higher ratings than anybody else and doing all these incredible interviews you're obviously a hard worker and at the top of your game i that they started lowering the salary and taking the show away from you. thank you for acknowledging all of this. thank you. it is a very lonely experience. so, i thank you for giving me that credit. when i finally realized i worked so hard for more than 25 years
towards and i realized that was going to come to an end for me, i realized i had to do this not so much for myself, but any other women that were going to come after me. and i wanted the next generation to not have to face the same indignities that i had and that is really what it was, seeing what i worked so hard for was going to go away. was it gradual? i know sometimes i make decisions and label them over for a long. of time and suddenly then i think wait a minute, i'm going to do this or this or i can't take this anymore or whatever else it is. i can't talk specifically about with my emotions but in general
terms for the win and i often think we are so used to working extra hard that we feel like we can change the dynamic if we work a little harder and you keep hoping they will finally see you for who you really are. i think stronger women are worse victims. because of that we are so used to banging our hea your head age wall to get ahead and we persevere against all the odds that we keep fighting instead of saying something. that is the dynamic that needs to change. >> host: what about your colleagues at fox? she had the highest rating on
television. you find out who your friends are. and how did that happen? were you disappointed in some of your friends and surprised at the support he got from some of the people? >> guest: i can't do the people at fox but you can read all about. in general how people behaved when they saw what was happening to you. >> it was fascinating and i will tell you a couple things i heard from people i haven't heard from in years but i never expected to hear from and that was amazing. >> you mean supporters. >> some of my own neighbors never reached out to me. that was the flipside. we didn't want to trouble you or bother you. were bothering you. they didn't know what to say.
sometimes that happens when people die. people sign a sympathy card just their name and my father always said to me when you send a card, you should write memories of that person because that's what they want to read is not just a name and i am not by any stretch of the imagination including a death with what i went through. they say nothing it's what you are talking about but you are still experiencing it. >> that man that jammed my head down into his crotch, 25 years ago, i saw him walking down the hallway of my place of employment and i panicked and i dreamed up and slammed my office door and i started sweating and was shaking.
he wasn't going to come into my office and put my head back in his crotch but this is what happens to you. 40 years ago for you, 25 years ago for me, you don't forget that moment of sheer panic and being out of control. i mustered up the courage after a couple of moments to crack open my door a little bit to look out the hallway. do you think that he even remembered it? >> probably not, if he was doing it all the time it is normalizing it within culture which brings us back to the enablers and why it is so important for people within the company is to say that is not acceptable. imagine if billy bush said that in the donald trump tape.
i'm not going to stand for this, mr. trump come at the time. i don't talk that way to women. he was trying to get ahead in the just wasn't going to happen. now i think that is going to start happening. i really do. especially with our younger people. they would want to see their hard work pays off in a good way and they would like to see and resold. i believe that our younger people especially want to get rid of this indignity. i really do and i think with more and more women coming forward, that is so empowering to the women of all ages but especially the young women that are just coming into the workforce. they are seeing what happens when others speak out and they see that they have a voice. >> wayne you look at politicians
and see for instance let's start with jack kennedy and my husband was a close friend coming e. and his wife and they would have dinner to work three nights a week at the white house and he spares, editor of the "washington post" and "newsweek" editor, he swears he never heard of rumors because the four of them were )-close-paren and so it wasn't something that came up and so he didn't know about it. later, when he started reading all of these stories, he was really shocked and this was after kennedy was killed he was shocked and disappointed and end of story came out about the woman he had an affair with in the white house when she was 21 and he had forced her to have oral sex in the white house pool with several staffers.
this person who was revered all over the world all over by everyone and he was this extraordinary man, no question about it, but he was a predator of the worst kind, so that makes him not an extraordinary man. then we have bill clinton and those that are the first to stand up and say if she says it happened it happened. then you have donald trump who is so blatantly out there that he even talks about it openly, and while he's married talking about it and the majority of
people in the country but he was elected president despite that and the people who were interviewed said that locker room talk or that's just the way talk. it's not locker room talk. i don't know any man who doesn't talk about that. what do you do about changing the culture in the sense that people will look at donald trump and say that is not acceptable
for anybody particularly the president of the united states because if that's what the thats of the supporters are saying you can do what he wants to do. it's a terrible example for our children. the way that i handled the personally, i show my children that tape because i thought that it was a teachable moment for them and i know millions of others across the country were grappling with what to do with it and i hope they use it as a teachable moment. i wrote an op-ed about that after he was elected and i said i don't give a damn about any policy that you are trying to pass or what party you belong to. to me, human decency supersedes
all of that and showed me what human decency is not and that is what i shared with my children. did they understand what he was talking about? did i want to show it to them, and know what though i felt lis imperative. but there were a lot of people think that the tax policy or immigration policy is more important than human decency, that's why we live in a free country and they can vote for whomever they want to. i worry that the comments have set us back dramatically but aside from that i am optimistic on where we are today because of one of the stories coming out. >> i wonder if what is happening now will make others look at
this and say this is enough, this has gone on for too long. i talk about this in the book with an entire chapter dedicated to the men. i want to know about the men who defend, who are the men out there fighting it seems i read george clooney said something about harvey weinstein. just for the men in my books range from journalists to the men who've made it their life's mission to go into the companies and teach them to be more equitable in the way they treat them with more respect. there are tons of men out there doing good work for women and here'here is why it is so cruci.
the responsibility of fixing the problem shouldn't only be officials in women. it's not only our responsibility to make the workplace safer. it's a totally more of a man's issue again a woman's issue so we need them on our side to make change and as long as we saw 94% with 94% of the fortune 500 companies run by men, we especially need them to be on our side in the way they pay us and the way in which they promote us into the way in which they decide whether or not he gets a seat in the boardroom and the way in which they may or may not sexually harass us. so the voices are critical to making change and that's why i feel even though it's only been a couple of days to see men come out and say what they've been saying, we must support these women and we must stop enabling this. that's huge. it's like a cascading effect.
i believe we are on the precipice of a church he just with regards to this issue. >> host: harvey weinstein may have been the tipping point in a way. it was so egregious and have been going on for so long and kept quiet for so long and then suddenly it just defies the imagination that this could have been happening in this day and age and people were accepting it and enabling it. but, you know, one of the things that i think is in terms of sort of fighting this is to sort of create an atmosphere and create a doctor when hillary clinton was talking about donald trump sort of hovering around her during the debate, she said i wondered if i should say just get away from me, you creep, because he was a creep. only a creep with say what he said on the access hollywood
tapes. and if suddenly -- it's kind of like smoking. at one point, even though, it was really cool and no now you'k at somebody that smokes and think that poor guy, he's addicted and he's weak. they are going to get cancer, the whole attitude towards smoking has changed. you simply look at a man that would shove a woman's face in his crotch and say you're a creep and i'm going to tell everybody what a creep you are. so even if they didn't realize that it was wrong or they didn't care or they felt entitled or whatever, they would be so terrified of being called a creep. i kept in my imagination last night when i was reading a book and getting angry i thought every newspaper should have the
creep of the week. [laughter] i think you're smoking analogy is a really good one. you can also have the creep of the week. [laughter] >> i see that in my kids. they look at smoking now and they are like look at th a persn smoking. it's outrageous. it's like this issue on sexual harassment in the next ten, 20 years that's the way in which we will be looking at it. there was this very powerful guy in, still around sort of well known for putting his hands on women's size at washington dinners. he never did anything more than that and it was creepy and
embarrassing, but it was kind of like you know, in the middle of a black tie dinner with candles and everything else and he puts his hand on her thigh you just sort of don't know whether to say cut it out. it would have been shocking. i can't look at this guy and not think about that. >> look at somebody like taylor swift in her 20s. do you think she wanted to take time off of her world tour to testify in a sexual harassment case wax probably not, but i am so glad she did, because she is sending a message of specialty to young women that she's not going to take that crap. she is a person standing up and saying get your hand off my
thigh. how dare you growth by -- grope my butt. that's what she is saying. if i jumped off a cliff and then more people in silicon valley and then you have this case and ben taylor swift and a now you have harvey weinstein, look how far we've come in just 15 mont months. in terms of getting this to st stop, there's two issues here. one of them is the guys will be scared because they will be called out and they will be humiliated. how do they become decent human beings? how do you get them to realize
that this is not decent behavi behavior. and they tolerated the most and mentioned that briefly in the book. this is not an unusual story among the religious congregations and certainly we have seen the sexual harassment situation but so you can stop people from this, people won't commit crimes because they are afraid they will get caught but only because they are afraid they will get caught so they may not do it because they are afraid, they will get caught and be embarrassed. how do you get them to realize this is wrong into this goes back to the original point of how we raise them. a lot of it has to do with the mothers and fathers.
>> guest: or whatever the family dynamic is of the partners together. kids see and hear everything. the last 15 months since my story came out and i'm really reevaluating how i am parenting and what is my dynamic with my husband because that is what they are seeing on a daily basis. also, the schools. why did that study come out shows five year old little girls when they heard something smart said that could be a man or a woman and by the time they are six or seven they were not so sure if it could be a woman or not? what happens in a child like between five and six, they go to school. what are we doing in the subtlety in schools that make women already feel less an in te way stealing whatever, more. >> host: you have a line in
the book where your daughter says mommy coming you should be president of the united states. my son said more than i love anything come he's now 35 and i was married to ben bradlee, the editor of the post, and a very strong man coming and he said to me on coming you should be president of the united states. [laughter] i read that when you said that and thought this was something must have been going on in the family dynamic even though he was a tough guy. [laughter] >> guest: i love to hear that. to finish the story, she said in the back of the car one day why can't you just decide to run today and i said it's a little more complicated than that. ironically, i've been asked to run for political office since the story unfolded and it isn't necessarily in the cards for me right now, but never say never. will we be copresident jordan's going to be vp. [laughter]
>> host: you have one statistic that blew me away. 43,000 people in the workplace are raped or sexually assaulted every year. can it be true? >> guest: it's more than that. 70% of people don't come forward, so this is an epidemic. this is what i've been saying. it is alarmingly shocking how much this is happening in our culture. >> host: my father once said to be giving advice when we started dating, never humiliate a man. and go that stuck with me all my life and he said that's the worst thing you can do to a man and i thought recently particularly when i was reading your book and getting back to this creep factor thing the only way to stop it is to humiliate the men who do this because they can't stan stand another ego itt
stand to be humiliated. thank you, dad, for that. now, so you are doing this incredible movement and testifying and speaking and all that kind of thing, so what do you think you will do? you talked about how so many times when this happens, the women never end up back at the job of their choice or the field of their choice; what do you think your future looks like? ..